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Richard Packham

Richard Packham, Teacher, Retired Attorney, Loving Father, Ex Mormon

by Richard Packham
I left the Mormon church in 1958, when I was 25 years old.

That was a long time ago: David O. McKay was the prophet, seer and revelator. There were only eight temples, and none of them owned a movie projector. Every ward had its own meeting house, Sunday school was at 10:30 a.m, and sacrament meeting was at 7:00 p.m. There were no black people in the church (at least none were visible). Garments were in a single piece. The temple endowment ceremony still had the death penalties, the minister, the five points of fellowship. The Book of Abraham papyrus scrolls were still missing. New missionaries learned the language of the country they were assigned to by arriving there two weeks early.

Why, after all these years, would I still be concerned, then, about Mormonism? Why have I not yet come to terms with that distant part of my past and left it behind?

There are several reasons:

First, I am descended from a long line of faithful Mormons. All of my ancestors in every branch of my family, for four, five and six generations, were Mormons. The Mormons and their history are my heritage. It is my only heritage. It is where I come from. None of my Mormon ancestors were great or famous, but I have read their stories, and they were good people. They were faithful, hard working, and deserving of my respect. The history of my family is inevitably intertwined with the history of the Mormons, their migration to Utah and the settlement of the mountain West. I cannot ignore Mormonism and Mormon history without forgetting my past.

Second, my family are still faithful Mormons, almost all, including my parents, my brothers and sisters, my older children, my grandchildren, my nieces and nephews. Their lives are permeated by their Mormon beliefs. Their day-to-day existence is intertwined with the activities of the busywork-making church, their friends are all Mormons, their hopes and fears are Mormon hopes and fears. I cannot ignore Mormonism without ignoring the lives of those I love.

Third, the Mormon church is becoming more prominent and more powerful in our society. In my state (which, unlike Utah, is not thought of as a “Mormon” state) it is now the second-largest religious denomination. Our present U.S. Senator is a devout Mormon. Mormons are occupying influential positions in our state and national governments far out of proportion to their population in the United States. The church has become a mega-wealthy financial enterprise, with billions of dollars worth of money-making businesses and property all over the country – a fact of which most non-Mormons are unaware – with wide-ranging (and usually unseen) influence on many aspects of American life. Its income has been reliably estimated to be millions of dollars per day, not only from its thousands of businesses but also from its faithful members, who are required to donate a minimum of ten percent of their entire income to the church.

The Mormon church boasts of its rapid growth. This growth, in addition to its stance in favor of large families, is because it maintains a large voluntary corps of full-time missionaries who are a well-trained and thoroughly indoctrinated sales force whose sole purpose is to bring more people into the church. Their goal is not to convert, but to enroll, not to enrich lives, but to baptize, not to save sinners’ souls, but to enlarge membership rolls. This missionary force is not directed by caring clergymen, but by successful businessmen, because the Mormon missionary effort is a business, and a very successful business, when judged by business standards.

But the ultimate goal of the church, as stated publicly by its early leaders Joseph Smith and Brigham Young (but not mentioned so publicly by more recent Mormon leaders), is to establish the Mormon Kingdom of God in America, and to govern the world as God’s appointed representatives. The church is already influential in the making of secular policy, as was proven not so long ago when the Equal Rights Amendment was defeated with decisive help from the Mormon church.

To me, the possibility that the Mormon church might control America is a frightening prospect.

Those are some of the more important reasons why I am still vitally interested in Mormonism and the LDS church.

Mormons will tell you that Mormonism is a wonderful way of life, bringing happiness in this mortal existence and, if we earn it by our faith and obedience, ultimate joy (and “power and dominion”) in the next. The promises and hopes it gives to its believers are very attractive and inspiring. Why, then, did I reject that? Here is the story of my own particular journey through (and, eventually, out of) Mormonism.

My Mormon childhood was very happy, with loving and nurturing parents and family. We were “special” because we had the “Gospel,” meaning Mormonism. In my small town in southern Idaho we Mormons easily were the dominant social and political group. We felt sorry for those not so fortunate, for whatever reason, that they were not blessed with the gospel. Our lives centered around the church. We had perfect attendance records at all our meetings. We studied our lesson manuals. It was a wonderful life. Wonderful because we had the Gospel, for which we thanked God several times a day, in every prayer and every blessing pronounced over our food.

We Mormon teenagers participated in school activities, of course, with non-Mormons, but we also had our own church-sponsored events, which were just as good, or better. Really good Mormon teenagers did not date non-Mormons, because of the danger of “getting involved seriously” with a non-Mormon, which would lead to the tragedy of a “mixed marriage” which could not be solemnized in the temple, and which would thus ultimately mean the eternal loss of the possibility of entering the highest degree of heaven, the celestial kingdom. None of us dared to risk that.

So my high school sweetheart was a good and faithful Mormon girl. We fell deeply in love and were devoted to each other without risking any immoral physical activity beyond long kisses and hugs (no touching of body skin or of any area below the waist or around her breasts, etc.). When she graduated from high school and I was in my third year at Brigham Young University, we two virgins got married in a beautiful ceremony in the Idaho Falls temple, and started to have babies. We were the ideal young Mormon couple.

I enjoyed my four years at BYU, being surrounded by devout fellow- students and being taught by devout and educated teachers. One professor of geology was also a member of our ward. I was just learning about the age of the earth as most geologists taught it. I asked him one Sunday at church how he reconciled the teachings of his science with the teachings of the church (which said that the earth was created about 6000 years ago). He replied that he had two compartments in his brain: one for geology and one for the gospel. They were entirely separate, and he did not let the one influence the other. This bothered me, but I didn’t think more about it.

After my graduation from Brigham Young University I was offered a scholarship at Northwestern University to work on a master’s degree. So my young wife and I with our two (at that time) babies moved to Evanston, Illinois, and for the first time in my life I was surrounded by non-Mormons. I was the only Mormon in my university program. This did not intimidate me in the least. I felt that I was intelligent enough, knowledgeable enough about religion, and skillful enough in debating skills (I had been a champion debater in high school) to discuss, defend and promote my religion with anybody. I soon found takers. Since it was no secret that I had graduated from BYU, many of my fellow graduate students had questions about Mormonism. They were friendly questions, but challenging. For the first time in my life I had the opportunity to spread the gospel. It was exhilarating. We had some wonderful discussions. Even my professors were willing to listen, and so I educated my linguistics professor about the Deseret Alphabet and my German literature professor about the similarities between Goethe’s worldview and Joseph Smith’s.

Some of my fellow students, however, had tracts and other literature about the Mormons which they had obtained from their own churches. They asked me questions that I was unable to answer satisfactorily because they were based on facts I was unfamiliar with. I had never heard about the Danite enforcer gangs, about the Blood Atonement Doctrine or the Adam-God Doctrine. Where did these horrible allegations come from?

I realized that in order for me to defend Mormonism I would have to know what its enemies were saying about it, so that I could be prepared with the proper facts. I had never been an avid student of the history of the church, although I had earned the highest grades in the third year high-school seminary course in church history. I mean, what was there important to know about church history, beyond the story of how Joseph had his visions, got the plates, translated them, and how Satan had persecuted the Saints until they got to Utah? I was more interested in doctrine: the Truth, as taught by the prophets. The Truth, eternal and unchanging.

But now I began to read church history, both the authentic histories published by the church and the awful lies and distortions published by its enemies. How different they were! It was almost as if the authors in each camp were writing about different events. And the university library, where I spent a good deal of time, seemed to have more of the latter than the former.

After one year I got my master’s degree in German and accepted a teaching job in Ogden, Utah. We returned to Zion and had our third child.

In Ogden I encountered for the first time the writings of the Mormon fundamentalists, who believe that Joseph Smith and Brigham Young were true prophets, but that the church since then – especially since the abandonment of the practice of polygamy – is in apostasy. At the time I was studying the doctrines and history of the church extensively, and it seemed that the fundamentalists had a lot of historical information that was not otherwise available. For instance, they relied heavily on the Journal of Discourses, a multi-volume work containing practically all the sermons preached by the church leaders in the first thirty or forty years after coming to Utah. Many years ago, I learned, every Mormon home had a copy of this work. But then the church leaders decided that it wasn’t necessary for the members to have it, and ordered all copies to be turned in. It became a rarity. Why? Every anti-Mormon work I had read relied heavily on quotations from the sermons in the Journal of Discourses. But the present-day church leaders almost never referred to it. Why? It bothered me, but I put the thought aside.

While I was living in Ogden, a fundamentalist publisher brought out a photographic reprint of the entire Journal of Discourses, in hard binding, for $250. If I had not been a poor schoolteacher I would have bought it, because I yearned to be able to read the wise words of the early leaders. But the question of why this work was suppressed by the church still bothered me. I put the thought aside.

One of the accusations made by anti-Mormon works I had read was that Brigham Young had taught that God had revealed to him that Adam was, in fact, God the Father. To substantiate this, they quoted Brigham’s sermons in the Journal of Discourses. If only I could check for myself! I was reminded of a strange comment made after class one day by Sidney B. Sperry, the BYU professor and authority on Book of Mormon and Bible studies. I had taken a Book of Mormon class from him, and admired him greatly. One day he said mysteriously to a small group of students who had stayed after class, “I think, when you get to the Celestial Kingdom, you may be greatly surprised to find out who God really is!” Wow! That implied that Dr. Sperry knew some secret that not many people knew; that we students didn’t really know all there was to be known about this; that the prophets had not told all. What could that secret be?

As I researched this more, and found again and again the same words quoted from Brigham Young’s Journal of Discourses sermons, it began to fit together: Adam was really God!

After two years teaching high school in Zion, I was offered a scholarship to continue my graduate studies in Baltimore. We accepted. Again we were surrounded by Gentiles, and again I had a large research library available.

Certain events in church history really began to bother me. Why had Zion’s Camp failed? Why had the Kirtland Bank failed? Both of these enterprises were organized for the benefit of the church by God’s prophet, who promised that they would succeed. It was difficult to avoid the conclusion that God was not doing much to direct the affairs of his church. And, as I thought about it, the same could be said for the experiments in the United Order (holding all property in common), plural marriage, the Deseret Alphabet – all projects begun with great promise, directed by God’s anointed leaders, and all of which failed and were soon abandoned. It bothered me, but I put the thought aside.

What began to bother me most was that the church did not seem to be telling the entire truth about many events in its past. The evidence I read seemed to leave no doubt that the church had encouraged, if not organized, the enforcer gangs called the Danites or the Avenging Angels. Too many independent and primary sources testified of their activities. At that time in my researches the true story of the Mountain Meadows massacre was becoming known, an atrocity which the official church history passed off as the work of Indians, whereas it was becoming clear that the primary blame was on the church. The massacre itself was bad enough, but to me the subsequent whitewash by the church was worse, so far as the divine nature of the church was concerned. It bothered me, but I put the thought aside.

Among the papers of my grandfather, who had served a mission to England in 1910, I found a number of tracts and pamphlets that he had used on his mission. One was the transcript of a debate in 1850 between John Taylor (then an apostle, and on a mission in England) and a Methodist minister. Among the topics discussed in the debate was the rumor, common at the time, that the Mormons were practicing plural marriage. Taylor vigorously denied the rumors as a vicious lie, and firmly asserted on his honor that Mormons were good monogamists. At that very time, however, Taylor himself was married to twelve living wives. All of the top men in the church also had multiple wives at that time. How could a prophet of God lie so blatantly? It bothered me, but I tried to put the thought aside.

The Adam-God problem continued to occupy my mind. I finally decided to try to settle the matter. If the doctrine were true, I was willing, as a faithful member of the church, to accept it. If it were not true, I needed some explanation about the apparent fact that Brigham Young (and other church authorities of his time) vigorously taught it. So I composed a letter to Joseph Fielding Smith, whom I respected very much, and who at the time was the Church Historian and the president of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. If he would only answer my letter! I spelled out to President Smith my dilemma: the evidence seemed to be clear and uncontroverted that Brigham Young had taught that Adam is God the Father. But the present church does not teach this. What is the truth?

I secretly thought (and perhaps hoped) that President Smith would write back and say something like: “Dear Brother, your diligence and faith in searching for the truth has led you to a precious secret, not known to many; yes, you can be assured that President Young taught the truth: Adam is our Father and our God, and the only God with whom we have to deal. The church does not proclaim this precious truth because we do not wish to expose the mysteries of God to the mockery of the world. Preserve this secret truth as you do the secrets of your temple endowment.”

I received a short and clear answer to my letter from President Smith. It was quite different from what I had expected. He wrote that such an idea was unscriptural and untrue, and completely false. He did not deal with the evidence that Brigham Young had taught it. He ignored the whole problem as if it didn’t exist. It bothered me, but I tried to put it out of my mind.

At the time I was auditing a class at the university in the history of philosophy. It was fascinating. I had no idea that ordinary human beings had given such thought to some of these questions. It occurred to me that my religion had plenty of answers and explanations, but it provided those answers without even really realizing what the questions were. The answers my church gave seemed rather flimsy and superficial, not even dealing with the really basic problems. I was introduced to the study of ethics, and was surprised to find the same thing: my religion, which claimed to be the ultimate, final and complete answer, was not even an introductory primer to the great ethical problems with which great thinkers had been dealing for hundreds of years.

However, I remained a faithful member of the church, fulfilling all my church obligations, attending meetings, observing the Word of Wisdom, wearing my temple garments. But I was struggling mightily to reconcile the church’s inconsistencies, lies, and dubious past with my faith in its divinity.

It was at a single moment one day in the university library when I was pondering this problem. I was suddenly struck with the thought, “All of these problems disappear as soon as you realize that the Mormon church is just another man-made institution. Everything then is easily explained.” It was like a revelation. The weight suddenly lifted from me and I was filled with a feeling of joy and exhilaration. Of course! Why hadn’t I seen it before?

I rushed home to share with my wife the great discovery I had made. I told her what I had learned: the church isn’t true!

She turned away and stomped up the stairs. She refused to accept anything I said critical about the church. It was the beginning of the end of our marriage.

I tried to continue my church responsibilities, primarily as ward organist. But I found it more and more difficult to sound sincere in public speaking, public prayer, or participation in class discussions. During the next summer my wife took the children back to Utah for a visit, and I felt it was silly for me to continue to wear the temple garments. And why shouldn’t I have a cup of coffee with the other students, or have a glass of wine at a party? I had never tasted coffee or alcohol in my life, but there was no reason now, I felt, to deprive myself of those pleasant things. The next year was an armed truce in my marriage.

My wife left me suddenly, with no warning, taking the children. Her friends at church helped her escape, and she returned to Zion and divorced me. A last-ditch attempt at reconciliation failed when she said that her return would be conditioned upon my returning to the faith. I realized that I could not do it, however much I wanted to keep my family. Of course she got custody of the children. She remarried four years later, her new husband a faithful priesthood holder whose wife had left the church. (How ironic, that a church which places such a high value on family ties actually destroys the very thing it claims to promote!)

In the years since leaving the church I have never regretted my decision for a moment (other than the fact that it caused me to lose my wife and children). Subsequent study has given me a hundred times as much damning information about the church and its history as I had at the time of my original decision to leave it. Many Mormon friends and family members have tried to convince me that I made a mistake, but when I insist that they also listen to what I have to say about my reasons for believing the church to be false, they soon abandon the attempt, even though I assure them that my mind is open to any evidence or reasoning I may have overlooked. They are convinced that I apostatized because of sin, lack of faith, stubbornness, pride, hurt feelings, lack of knowledge or understanding, depravity, desire to do evil or live a life of debauchery. None of those reasons is correct. I left for one reason, and one reason only: the Mormon church is not led by God, and it never has been. It is a religion of 100% human origin.

My wife believed, I think, that since the church had taught me to be honest, loving, faithful, hard-working and a good husband, my leaving the church would mean I would soon become just the opposite. She was probably not alone in believing that I would soon be a shiftless, godless, miserable bum, dead at an early age of syphilis and alcoholism.

However, my life since leaving the church has been a rich and rewarding one. I have been successful in my profession. I married a lovely girl with beliefs similar to mine, and we now have two fine adult sons whom we raised with no religious training whatsoever, and who are as admirable human beings as one could ever want their children to be. We have prospered materially (probably more than most of my good Mormon relatives), and our life has been rich in many other ways as well, rich in good friends, in appreciation of the beauty to be found in our world. We have explored all the intellectual and spiritual riches of our human heritage and profited from it all.

And as I am getting older I also realize that I have no fear of death, even though I have no idea what to expect when it comes. In that regard I find I am unlike many Mormons, who are desperately worried that they have not been sufficiently “valiant” in their devotion to the church to qualify for the Celestial Kingdom. Again, how ironic it is that a church which begins by promising its members such joy and happiness actually causes them such worry and despair!

I am still proud of my Mormon heritage. I still enjoy doing genealogy work (I have more complete records than most of my Mormon family members). I still love to play and sing some of the stirring old Mormon hymns. I still keep a good supply of food on hand. And I still believe in eternal progression: things just keep getting better and better.

As a postscript: Apostle Bruce R. McConkie admitted that Brigham Young did teach that Adam was God, and that the church has indeed lied about its own history. (read his letter here) He says that Brigham Young was wrong, but he has gone to the Celestial Kingdom; but if you believe what Brigham Young taught about that, you will go to hell. The fact that the church can put a “positive spin” on these admissions is truly mind-boggling.

© 1998 Richard Packham Permission granted to reproduce for non-commercial purposes, provided text is not changed and this copyright notice is included.

The text above has been taken from the Exmormon Foundation website, which can be found here.

Click here to view Richard Packham’s biography and story on his website.

Click here to visit Richard Packham’s homepage.

To view Richard’s page on “ExMormon Scholars Testify” click here.

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Suzanne Campbell
November 9th, 2013 at 11:42 am

Thank you so much for sharing your story. I too am an ex-Mormon, enjoying life to the fullest and raising four beautiful children without the need for religion.

J.T. McMahon
November 13th, 2013 at 11:52 pm

You were my first point of contact and I am forever grateful. It was a living Renaissance. Thank you.

November 18th, 2013 at 7:59 pm

God is real. Accept Christ as your savior before its to latev

January 15th, 2014 at 8:05 pm

Evidence please:
Which god?
What is your evidence for Christ? (the bible/book of mormon doesn’t count)
What do you mean by “too late”?
Why are you concerned for someone else in this matter; shouldn’t you concern yourself with your own ‘soul’?

April 29th, 2014 at 5:09 pm

Wow. First of all the Bible is backed by thousands of historical documents. Second archeology. Every city in the bible has been found every ruin every location. Jesus tomb is empty cause He conquered death. God bless

September 1st, 2014 at 10:16 am

Robbie, I have seen you lurking on other posts. While I have accepted Jesus Christbas my savior, (I too, am an ex Mormon), not everyone shares my belief. While you maybelieve something, and you mayfeel that Your opinion is the onlytrue opinion, you need to respect others and thierbeliefs. When I left the church, it tookme a fewnyearsnto sort things out. Have some respect for others.

September 1st, 2014 at 10:17 am

Whoops …typo…Jesus Christ AS my savior

November 19th, 2013 at 4:18 pm

I am an ex Mormon, and have been for 30 years. Living my life my way. Happy in every way. Thanks to people for seeing the truth!

November 24th, 2013 at 7:39 am

You guys are no different than Mormons. You are all on the same path to hell. The only way to avoid hell is to accept JESUS CHRIST as your Lord and Savior. Ask yourself why atheism isn’t really growing.

December 10th, 2013 at 9:10 pm

So are you brah, for judging us.

robbie gorman
January 12th, 2014 at 6:50 am

Ha idiotic response

April 12th, 2015 at 5:53 pm

Robbie, you are a prime example of what many Chrisitians do……They judge and looking out for everyone’s salvation. Please have some respect.

January 15th, 2014 at 8:06 pm

Atheism IS growing. It is the fastest growing section of US, British, Scandanavian and Canadian society.

What is your evidence for “hell” and where is it?
Why are you concerned what others believe? What effect does it have on your ‘soul’ what others believe or not?

January 21st, 2014 at 2:40 am

Sorry Fatty – but christians unlike atheists care about other people, so we don’t get to just live and let live. Atheism is growing because of the gay movement and because people are too lazy and narcissistic to believe in God or give time to anyone else. That’s not a net positive for the world.

February 22nd, 2014 at 6:24 pm

“Atheism is growing because of the gay movement “—what a bunch of BS.
People said the exact same thing when black people were being treating the ‘white’ way.
God preaches for love…”Faith, Hope, and Love are some good things He gave us, but the greatest is love”.
You do not have to agree or like that people are gay, just like I do not have to agree or like that people call themselves Christians but fail to do the most basic principal- love each other unconditionally.

June 18th, 2014 at 4:15 pm

EllinaI am interested in Mormon cuchrh I have been researching on my own and found so much negativity towards it on the Internet. Some of the websites are created by ex-mormons.I have many questions.One is close to my heart.. position of women in the cuchrh. I am a female physician who works hard to support family, at times over 12 hours a day. I am not home often and it is not my choice. I LOVE my job and would never give it up. I also LOVE my family. Are there situations similar to mine? Does cuchrh encourage women to be professionals or just stay in home moms? Thank you!

April 12th, 2015 at 5:54 pm

Wow! That is hitting below the belt! There is a lot you do not know then.

January 15th, 2014 at 8:26 pm
January 15th, 2014 at 11:25 pm

Thank you for sharing story with us. I was an orphan from Buddhist parents. Buddhism was a state religion. I knew a family joined the mormon. They were so poor and came to the US as refugees, they needed support and LDS helped them. I didn’t believe LDS and I didn’t know why and I grew up among the Mormons. My foster parents were Mormons. I think based on my experiences it is faith of the person. I didn’t know Christian God in my native country, only Buddha in Buddhism. But many dreams I saw and met Jesus. I didn’t know Him at first, but my own father had his dream too. We lived under Communist regime, and most of my family members were killed and some by died by starvation. Only my father, me and my young brother left. Before my father died he told me “Your God is with you”. He told me his vision, and I told him mine. He then told me that wasJesus Christ whom I saw. How could Jesus Christ the Christian God is with me a poor Buddhist kid, I did not know Him? I was the only child survived from the Communist regime..
I am not Buddhist anymore, but Christian. I will never stop praying God and neverstop reading the Bible. I have continued to dream and saw Christ in my visions. I can only share with others but I cannot criticize anyone. The BIBLE is the words of GOD, and
it was never corrupted, only men were..

My name is Viddhia

February 17th, 2016 at 6:46 pm

I don’t have access to the cuerrnt figures. When I was doing work with a national sample in the early 2000s, the acceptance rate for medical school was around 44%, with dentistry only in the high 30s. However, some dental schools have opened since then (e.g. Arizona), making it easier to get in. But of course since state-run universities often limit their out-of-state entrants, it makes it harder for specific folks to get in. I am sure that I am biased because all my student assistants for years have been dental school wannabees, and among them were people who had already been accepted to medical school as a fallback plan. And the scuttlebut around our medical center is that the veterinarian and clinical psychology programs are even more competitive. Also, many American physicians could not get into medical school, either. Of our cuerrnt medical residents at church, at least three of them trained offshore (Caribbean) but were accepted into residencies here. But I don’t think there is a glut of dentists as much as there are vast stretches that are underserved, with only a few having enough. All this medical stuff is going to be in great demand as the baby boom ages. Pharmacy, physical therapy, etc. are the careers to consider for young people going into school.

January 15th, 2014 at 11:34 pm

May I add that the Communist took my little brother away from me, and they sent me to the labor camp I was just a kid, but I had to word hard to have a small bowl of rice.

January 17th, 2014 at 6:53 pm

Do u research about the bible and research it without using your own unbelief. The evidence and Jesus spoke more about hell than heaven. Jesus told His followers to go out and make disciples out of the unsaved.

January 21st, 2014 at 2:37 am

Robbie – keep pitching to add people to your church so your minister can profit form his followers.

January 21st, 2014 at 2:43 am

So this is a story about a nice man who tried to reason his way through religion and couldn’t. I didn’t see anything in here about a spiritual experience in your life and now reliance on those spiritual experiences to set your foundation. Without that you had on hope of staying in the church. Sad story. I’m always surprised that people could spend that much time in the church and never connect with the Holy Spirit and get to know their Savior when I see so many around me who do.

January 21st, 2014 at 2:46 am

I have to say that I’ve read several of these Exmormon posts and all of them have had no basis in anything I would consider to change my faith. It seems to come down to people who kill their spiritual sensitivity by getting caught up in things they can’t explain. I’ve had so many connections with God and with the power of the Grace of Jesus Christ through my Mormon faith it would take much more than someone failing to reason their way out of a silly doctrinal question to make an impact.

February 17th, 2016 at 7:13 pm

I have never heard of a Mormon chiropractor, but I also don’t know annoye who sees a chiropractor are they more popular in other regions of the US, I wonder?Devyn I only argue that, given Mormons’ tradition of advanced education, I suppose that any profession requiring graduate work will be well- or over-represented in those areas. I further argue that dentists may be at their saturation point there, which may be relatively higher than for doctors, for some reason. Many of the medical students who study here are from Utah or Idaho and would like to return but do not expect to be able to for some time after their residency, because of that saturation. Academics say the same thing: they do not anticipate tenure-track positions in Utah because the competition is so high. I suspect that dentists may be working part-time (and still earning a nice living in relatively low-cost areas), starting their own practices, or capitalizing on the reported popularity of cosmetic procedures in UT. Pediatricians and emergency physicians just don’t have that same flexibility.What of optometry they would receive the same blend of perks/prestige/predictable hours/relatively limited schooling, would they not?

jan percell
January 21st, 2014 at 5:40 pm

This particular witness was so loving but so sorrowful, but i believe this gentleman has rightly divided scriptures and found the story of latter day saints is a perverted gospel. I enjoyed his discussion of how he studied and im sure he prayed hard…knowing what he would go thru!!! Blessing

January 22nd, 2014 at 5:27 pm

Lou we don’t profit from others we receive profit from zGod when He sees fit. My duty is to inform u that Jesus is coming back REAL soon and unless u r saved u will suffer His wraith

January 23rd, 2014 at 6:04 am

Thanks for sharing your story. I wish I had been more willing to consider these facts at 25! It is heartbreaking that it destroyed your first marriage.

Mamie Sailors
February 10th, 2014 at 9:47 pm

It’s truly a wonderful and helpful piece of information. I am happy that you simply shared this useful information with us. Please keep us up to date similar to this. Thanks for sharing.

February 19th, 2014 at 4:04 pm

JUST WANTED TO LET YOU KNOW, I’ve had to severe ties to the family I thought loved me. Not only have I realized that they are ARROGANT but they’re lacking in the most basic of NORMAL COMMUNICATION skills. I hate to say it but I do feel better for telling them all to FOFF!. Yeras and years of totally mis-treating me and ignoring me because I don’t wish to be in the church and he says I’ve got a heart filled with HATE lol, IT’S ONE OF LIFES MOST TRAGIC REALITIES THIS SPECIAL PASS BS WAY OF BEING A CHURCH. Love is LOVE it needs nobody to explain it nor any dunbass religious zelots.!

April 13th, 2014 at 2:09 am

Great story! I’m glad you are out there to help others find their way. It is not an easy journey.

May 22nd, 2014 at 7:23 pm

What if you were wrong Richard? What if you convinced yourself the church is not true? How are you hundred percent sure that you made the right decision almost here so?” About having lots of money even more than your temple going active Mormon family seems a little odd. Along very happy for you they have lots of money being out they say can’t take it with you. The only thing you can take with you as your honesty morality.

May 22nd, 2014 at 7:29 pm

I’m sorry about the misspells ) Use Siri and I have a New York accent;) what I was trying to say is : it’s wonderful that you’re financially secure that you were able to find happiness with another woman that you have two great kids. I really mean it,I’m very happy for you! I’m glad if you are really happy and at peace. But I don’t feel that you are at peace. “Me thinkest thou professeth too much. I’m a convert from a Jewish Catholic background. I was 12 years old. Spiritual things must be spiritually discerned. Experiences I’ve had over a lifetime have told me just the opposite: the church is the church of Jesus Christ and that the book of Mormon is the truth. If you are so happy with all your money and your life now why do you have to go around on the Internet bashing the church?

May 22nd, 2014 at 7:38 pm

Answer me this: Joseph Smith said that when people leave the church, it’s at the behest of the evil one, and they leave neutral ground forever. There are left to kick against the pricks, and fight the Saints of God. I have yet to see this prophecy not be fulfilled.”They leave the church , cannot leave it alone”. I believe it’s because deep in the heart of every anti-Mormon they don’t know hundred percent the church is false.
1. Why are most anti-Mormons such unhappy people?
2. Why do a good majority of them become atheist?

July 18th, 2014 at 5:30 am

oh, boy! i just couldn’t stand it! this robbie wouldn’t leave you guys alone! but let me tell you something, robbie, as a mormon you SHOULD know, that each and everyone of us have a right to choose who we want to be and what we want to believe in! remember? if not – read scriptures closely and don’t bother anyone! and if you don’t like something on this website, go to you will find much more pleasant information for yourself out there.
you have no right to judge someone just because he/she thinks that church IS NOT true, or just because someone don’t believe in something that you believe! it’s none of your business!
good luck!

August 22nd, 2014 at 10:27 pm

I am Morman and I was a convert I have never been so Happy in my life and none of this will change the way Heavenly Father has brought great blessings to mine and my families life.

February 28th, 2015 at 2:47 pm

just a question: can anyone tell me at what moment did GOD Himself begin to exist ? I find it hard to except that He always has existed

February 17th, 2016 at 9:27 pm

I have worked at a drteistny school far outside of the Mormon corridor, and done nationwide evaluation work with dentists. It is much harder to get into dental school than medical school, because of all the lifestyle reasons mentioned. I don’t know of any program that will admit without an undergraduate degree any more. For a while in the 90s, my program was going to refuse admit any more BYU grads, because of the perception that Mormons get instate tuition here, but then go off to the intermountain west to practice. But a group of BYU grads stayed local, got active in the alumni association, and turned that around. In admissions, we have something like 1700 applicants for about 90 slots. And that doesn’t even count those who want to apply, but know they don’t have what it takes and wait a year or perhaps get an MPH before applying. One things that helps LDS is if they are returned missionaries (it is different enough to stand out), and especially if they have foreign language skills as a result.

December 25th, 2015 at 4:04 pm

Spiritual things must be discerned spiritually. Let me ask you this: matter is neither created nor destroyed can you wrap your mind around that? How about subatomic physics and string theory?these are difficult concepts that doesn’t make them incorrect. God has always existed as our souls have always existed for eternity. Just because our physical body and mind can’t grasp that doesn’t mean at some point after this life it won’t be made manifest to us. Look up near death experiences from around the world it’s an international site just look up NDE on Google and please read the stories that are translated into English and also from the US as well.

January 23rd, 2016 at 1:33 pm

Hello . I noticed how many Ex Mormons have found happiness since their escape. I can not think outside of the box of my indoctrination. I was not one? spared the rod.. nor was i spoiled to say the least.. I am yet to this day..unable to function in society. As My Mother was unable to protect me from the brutal Gypsy ways of rairing a boy.. I had been brutalised and trained like a Terrier Dog is for the fight.. Obedience training was my fathers passion.. He found the gospel very useful in facilitating his form of sadism which was presented to me as zealousness for the gospel. Enabled through my Moms humbled cowed indoctrinated beliefs.. The gospel gave for Her the excuses to tolerate my fathers criminality.. At last She had enough of His wickedness & fled back home to N.ireland. 1970. Home to Mom & Dad.. the ward president there at the local branch. We were on the M2 road On the bus from Belfast i was in my Moms ams a baby when the bus was hijacked.. and all on board who were not roman Catholic were singled out for Brutal treetment.. my earliest memory therefore indelibly formed through the danger response mechanism we have built in.. my memory is of feersome men polarised in hatred.. come toward us to Destroy rape beat and murder.. my eyes were as a cameras lenz.. snapping away as my mother suffered in silence as i watched the worst side of human nature enacted efore my infant eyes.. My Grandparents were unable to make a decision for Her and instead sought Stake precidency advice.. It wasnt the mormon way to give up on a marriage.. and of course My Mom took the sectarian Punnishment as a sign from God that she should not have left the frying pan fort he fire.. So We went back where my dad thinking to herself that a wee baby wont remember.. where my unblameable Dad pursued a fresh career of resentment and abuse which made me know a few things cognitavely.. indelibly.. i can not find peace or any other way of thinking other than the black white thinking. Which early on had caused the splitting of my dogged un personality.. Trained like a gypsy.. but on sunday i had to sit with the terror of his hypocritical massive musclar arms.. His abuse was found out again and He had been punnishing ~Her too for leaving with an affair with my school teacher . It was too much for Her to bare again so we returned to ireland where this time we were to stay. i couldnt believe the relief felt with two words were staying.. i remember the sunny smiles.. i remember the dreaded nightly phone calls where i had to listen to his lies to me and Mum.. We went back again where he became more subvert and blamed me squarely for Her abscence.. So the abuse escalated into pure hate from this day on.. tiil i escaped.. i suffered more from his frustrations outlet.. his week little punchbag who had learned not to cry or make a peep so as to end it quicker. i had learned that screaming made the beeting worse. this went on for the last five years of my mothers fight for survival from breast cancer’ .. in 1980. leaving my dad to re marry a psycopathic Woman with Her 4 x children # only two months after Moms funeral. I was now aged 10 it was 1980 and i had still four years to survive from the most appauling cycle of abuse from the new Mother which i had expected to be like another version of mine.. was a street thug from glasgow city the gorbels ghetto they were from.. Within the year my sister had fled to Grannys after Dad had punched my Elder sister giving her a bloody nose. for an imagined slight against the Step mom.. She turned out to be twice the saddist that He was. She used His strength against us for Her plan to drive out the old brood. My sister was targeted as spoiled and all them turned bullying Her. She was five the bruts were Beeting and torturing Her in front of me but i was not moved.. as i had learned that i had no rights whatsoever. but they could not move me. So my baby sister coppied my approach to my abuse in silence stoic still standing obediently for the ritual. the Still lovely to me in my weekened mind! Stepmom ecalated the campaign of Sex for Dad if He prosecuted a sufficiently terrific trial and torture of me.. i was a starved kid by then.. my father resented giving me food.. would dance gaily around the table happily humming n laughing while steeling the little food portion i had been given while clipping me on the back of the head for trying to cover it . with his ring finger.. i still loved Her and respected him as i could not escape the mormon mindset… i was treet like a dog. i became compliant and loyal. though sorrowful desperate human dog.. i could not think my way out of the gospel teachings, so strenuously placed in my young mind.. My mom was utterly unable to either. till the end.. You see they had Prophisyed that she would watch her children grow up and would not yet die.. She died knowing Her mistake.. i had no way of unlearning but i soon rejected the church aged 11.. i became immune to pain, feer, or violence and death in general.. i was a gypsy brut impaired by a mormon doctered heart.. though it seamed cold now. I became a bully myself given ample opportunity to grow in the form of the father i grew up in sectarian violence where it all made sense to me..God had been preparring me for a different mission than the one i was born to.. hunting other boys and even men.. i hated my life but found that i could not escape through my dogged Mormon sense of loyalty .like a whipped dog.. because of my inability to say No. or yes or form a single coherent opinion of my own which was not jaded by my mormon ways.. perverted through my mistreetment. I too became the punnisher. The last straw in my stepmoms game. was to ask if i missed my real Mom. i said Yes but i have ~Yoiu now.. and smiled. She put a full bbottle of valerium into the dead embers of last nights fire as i was made Cinders of the house.. my dad had a good time if he put on a good show of hatred for his son.. so i knew what i had done and that she would report only half of what i had replied.. i cracked.. and downed the whole bottle of tablets. my silent baby sister was watching from her passive permanent downward stare. i was sent on an errand as i finnished the pils.. i jumped to it as i was trained to.. but as i got back to the door passed out.. my dad was laughing saying stop messing about.. and they left me there taking the bread and milk from me. My little sister had seen them watching through the crack in the door as i fell for the plan.. seeing her chance she ran to poor old ~Mrs Shannon next door. who had a telephone and got her to call an ambulance.. My heroin saved my life.. she never told me this til a few years ago. Her loyalty like mine. Dogged abused loyalty. To the end i denied for 1 x whole month what mrs Shannon had said. i spent one lonely month in isolation on the hospital ward. two weeks were in waiting for the decision which sent me right back to it.. wherupon the same day took a suspected apendicites attack and back to hospital for a further two weeks while the next decision based on my loyalty was to send me back to them having not found evidence of the poison suspected by neighbours.. i had two split compartments in my brain by now.. with characters i had presented to my father which seamed to have pleased him.. i still have these four fake personas to this day as they seamed acceptible in his sight for a Golden moment where he laughed at my battered blackened face and head. one day after surviving a UDA punnishment beeting. for befriending Catholics.. anti social they had declared it.. to this very day i am utterly unable to escape from abuse i had a little family or two as i got older see id been diagnosed BPD aged 34.. i never covered my Fathers fathers anal rape and other sexual abuse while left there while my Mom n Dad where at the temple doing some mystrious duty.. for over 5 years in psychotherapy. It gave me no more than a diagnosis and a feeling that id the key of hope.. i hadnt for i was still falling victim to abuse by loved ones. i would choose housing estate victims of mob cruelty to champion and protect.. feeling needed was my substitute for what id never known or been allowed…love. And my need for pain was catered for in my fierce victories against oppressors of the innocent.. has been my sense of pride but the abused whom i thought i had saved.. only in turn became my abusers.. i could not defend myself from those whom i had chosen to nourish in a spirit of turn the other cheek. while my pain increased all the more. My Mom had dutifully put relief society and choir practice first then came families . So I learned from what i thought to be my best example in my life. My poor indoctrinated happy slave? my Mom.. i learned to stay away from dad .. i wanted to forgive him even when i had a son.. But learned that forgiveness not asked for? cannot be given or even offered. So he is dead already to me.. i have found someone who loves me finally. but im damaged.. cnt find a way to get away from the Mormon ways or the Gypsy ways.. and im both and neither.. contradiction in hypocricy by defaut of cognition. I learned in secret that one day i would practice polygammy for instance… these words worked like a programme downloaded with a hopeless love of the lie gone awry.. I know its all wrong but can not change. Like the old Dog ? cant learn new tricks.. so my struggle in vain.. goes on and on reardless of the abscence of hope.. coz im impaired through the oxymoronic mormon in me..

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